On Jul 20, 7:56=EF=BF=BDpm, Banty <Banty_mem...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> In article <-tidnYf9TNvUWx7VnZ2dnUVZ_gmdn...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Ericka
Kammere=
r
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Banty wrote:
> >> In article <mqCdnbLhI_oLBR7VnZ2dnUVZ_jSdn...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Ericka
Kamm=
erer
> >> says...
> >>> Banty wrote:
> >>>> In article <d-mdnYC7T_Vauh_VnZ2dnUVZ_gidn...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Ericka
Ka=
mmerer
> >>>> says...
> >>>>> Banty wrote:
> >>>>>>In article <3OadnWikjvmlcxzVnZ2dnUVZ_gGdn...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Ericka
K=
ammerer
> >>>>>> says...
> >>>>>>Firstly, Grandma is NOT, we HOPE, going to be holding comforting
st=
roking while
> >>>>>> drive her alone to the hospital.
> >>>>> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDRight. =EF=BF=BDMy point was that calling an
amb=
ulance instead
> >>>>> of having Grandma drive does not necessarily solve the issue
> >>>>> of holding/comforting/stroking. =EF=BF=BDGetting another person in
=
the
> >>>>> car does that (assuming an ambulance is not needed), whether
> >>>>> that person is Mom, a neighbor, whatever. =EF=BF=BDAnd the spare
ad=
ult
> >>>>> can be the driver or the comforter. =EF=BF=BDSo many variables, so
=
why
> >>>>> make iron-clad decisions in advance?
> >>>>This isn't making "iron-clad decisions" =EF=BF=BD- this is making
*co=
ntingency plans*.
> >>> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDSo, ah, what's the big deal about leaving room
for=
more
> >>> options in the contingency plan, especially if it makes it
> >>> easier to sell?
>
> >>Why on earth would any more complication be desirable? =EF=BF=BDAn
emer=
gency plan should
> >>be as simple as can be and still be comprehensive. =EF=BF=BDIf there
we=
re to be one more
> >> option that would satisfy you, what would it be, and what 'hole'
would=
that
> >> plug, and exactly how?
>
> > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDHow simple is a three level decision decision tree?
> >Mine actually doesn't have any more decision points than yours,
> >and is no more complicated. =EF=BF=BDIt's simply more flexible.
>
> No, it's more undefined.
>
>
>
> >>What, exactly, has to be "sold"? =EF=BF=BDThat puzzles me.
=EF=BF=BDWhy=
would a loving Grandma
> >> be anything other than happy to know exactly what kind of contingency
=
plan to
> >> follow? =EF=BF=BDWhy would she have to be "sold" on it?
>
> > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDBecause while both decision trees allow mom to
contr=
ol
> >the outcomes in *exactly* the same way, one rubs Grandma's nose
> >in the lack of trust and the other doesn't. =EF=BF=BDA little tact
> >never hurt anyone, especially when it comes at no cost.
>
> And yours is very likely to have that sore point put on the table, at
the=
very
> worst time. =EF=BF=BDNothing is solved; only deferred, to the worst
time.
>
> And see how I persist in calling it "a sore point"? =EF=BF=BDI dont' say
=
"Grandma
> untrustworthy"; I don't say "DIL fearful". =EF=BF=BDI just call it a
sore=
point. =EF=BF=BDThis
> is how people get around disagreements. =EF=BF=BDThey dont' leave
continu=
ing flahspoints
> laying around like landmines. =EF=BF=BDWills don't say "the three
sisters=
who dislike
> each other can decide how to split up my assets".
>
> Since the DIL has the final say anyway, if this is still a problem, take
=
it off
> the table, I say. =EF=BF=BDGrandma needn't personalize it to a "trust"
th=
ing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>>>>So that option is out from the get go. =EF=BF=BDIt's infinitely
mor=
e likely already,
> >>>>>>therefore, that Grandma will be in the back of the rig with her,
an=
d if not her,
> >>>>>> it will be *somebody*. =EF=BF=BDSomebody quite experienced with
ju=
st this sort of
> >>>>>> situation!
> >>>>> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDAgain, the only options on the table are not
Gra=
ndma drives
> >>>>> vs. call an ambulance. =EF=BF=BDI don't see why the options should
=
be
> >>>>> artificially limited when the option to make the decision at the
> >>>>> time with knowledge of the conditions involved and the resources
> >>>>> available is actually at hand.
> >>>> Ah, yes, there's:
>
> >>>>Grandma the knowledgable nurse treats at home. =EF=BF=BDFeasible:
yes=
- done. No - next
> >>>> in the decision =EF=BF=BDtree.
> >>>>Grandma decides between: =EF=BF=BDCalling Mom and Mom coming home
(to=
take to doctor or
> >>>> ER) or calling 911. =EF=BF=BDBased on her knowledge.
> >>>>That's the next branch in the decision tree. =EF=BF=BDWith a
sub-bran=
ch for not being
> >>>> able to get ahold of Mom.
>
> >>>>That's how things are done, Ericka. =EF=BF=BDIt's that way in EMT
tra=
ining, in military
> >>>>training, and I'm very surprised your prescool doesn't have
something=
like that.
>
> >>> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDYou know, I'm really tired of being patronized
her=
e,
> >>> and I'm tired of being propped up as your strawman.
>
> >> I'm not doing a strawman argument.
>
> > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDIt is, because you are deliberately recasting my
arg=
uments
> >so that you can knock them down instead of addressing the actual
> >issues on the table.
>
> Recast how? =EF=BF=BDI thought the issue was to get a cogent and viable
e=
mergency plan
> defined. =EF=BF=BDIt needn't work in this driving issue.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> =EF=BF=BDElse, perhaps you can answer the questions I
> >>asked above simply, staightforwardly, in a single sentence or two.
=EF=
=BF=BDBecause how
> >> I understood your idea was that Mom would be called and they'd wing
it=
from
> >>there, with a lot of sentences about many factors, capped with the
need=
for some
> >>kind of understanding that Grandma would respect what Mom decides,
what=
ever that
> >>means (not argue with her? =EF=BF=BDOr just not take action other than
=
what she comes up
> >>with, even if they argue? =EF=BF=BDI'm not even sure what that
means.).=
=EF=BF=BDThat's hardly
> >>any better an emergency plan than anyone *without* an emergency plan
wo=
uld do -
> >> quick call somebody and improvise. =EF=BF=BDAnd that's not a good way
=
to go.
>
> > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDFirst of all, the emergency situation is covered
exa=
ctly
> >the same way in both plans (call 911), as is the obvious to deal
> >with at home scenario (Grandma deals). =EF=BF=BDThe *ONLY* difference
is
> >what to do in situations requiring urgent care that could be
> >handled in a number of different ways depending on the situation.
> >Your plan forestalls all other options and says call an ambulance.
>
> Have you been reading?? Actually, mine says an intermediate option is to
=
call
> Mom, and Mom comes. =EF=BF=BDTo possibly do the drive to the ER or
doctor=
with Grandma
> in back seat with baby.
>
> >Mine simply says let mom decide what looks best under the
cir***stances,
> >which could include any number of safe and reasonable options, at
> >mom's discretion. =EF=BF=BD
>
> Which isn't a plan, it's an improvisation. =EF=BF=BD(And an opening for
G=
ranma to "can't
> I can't I can't I can't I just DRIVE her there?")
>
> >*I* wasn't the one who brought up the "what
> >if Grandma argues about it" issue. =EF=BF=BDI simply said that A)
=EF=BF=
=BDI doubted
> >she would, because it takes a real b*tch to pull a power play with
> >an injured child in her arms and B) if I were the mom and had any
> >real idea that someone would do that, I would consider them an
> >unfit sitter at any time. =EF=BF=BDNevertheless, I did say that if one
> >was unsure, one could make it explicit to Grandma that the
> >expectation was that Grandma would abide by mom's decisions in
> >the moment.
>
> Like I said before, she wouldn't see it as a power play. =EF=BF=BDShe'd
l=
ikely see it as
> the Best Thing To Do. =EF=BF=BDAnd I didnt' bring up the b-word
=EF=BF=BD=
:-)
>
> > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDSo, my suggestion is no more complicated, it is
> >more flexible, it is pretty much the same plan as at our preschool
> >(and many others, so it's hardly as outre as you wish to make it
> >out), it continues to vest all the decision making in mom's hands,
> >it gets mom out of the difficult conversational bind she found
> >herself in where she was having a hard time enumerating
> >which situations belonged in the call-an-ambulance bucket and which
> >belonged in the grandma-deals bucket (nevermind that she'll never
> >be able to enumerate them all), and all without nearly as
> >much risk of getting grandma's dander up and thus greater
> >cooperation and harmony.
>
> How does it do that?! =EF=BF=BDIf she's to make the decision on the spot
=
when Grandma
> calls her??
>
> And how is it there's no effort at harmonizing that's to be done not to
g=
et
> *DIL's* dander up? =EF=BF=BDOr feeling's hurt or feeling bulldozed over.
=
=EF=BF=BDShe counts
> too, if there's to be peace!! =EF=BF=BDYou'd have her take this plan
that=
leaves things
> open-ended and possibly dealing with this sore issue between the two
wome=
n at a
> very bad time to be doing that. =EF=BF=BD*My* dander'ed be up, I tell
ya.
>
> All that "enumeration" was all about Grandma trying to put forward
exampl=
es
> where she should be able to drive and DIL resisting. =EF=BF=BDThey're
not=
even the crux
> of the issue - it's the kind of unfortunate conversation one gets into
wh=
en
> either one either can't muster to say "no" directly, or the other person
=
isn't
> taking "no" as an answer. =EF=BF=BD"What about this...what about
that...w=
hat about that
> other case.....".
>
> My plan leaves a medically knowledgable Grandma to decide amongst three
o=
ptions
> on medical grounds. =EF=BF=BDFix at home, urgent but not-911 so call
DIL,=
very urgent so
> call =EF=BF=BD911. =EF=BF=BDIf she's feeling "untrusted", she should
take=
consolation in that.
>
> >But I'm sure it would be sooooo much
> >better to make all the decisions a priori so that there's no
> >flexibility to react to the situation at hand in order to
> >get grandma to knuckle under in a more obvious way that leaves
> >her no room to save face.
>
> There's *sufficient* flexibility. =EF=BF=BDAnd, if Grandma is respecting
=
DIL's wishes
> concerning driving, what's this "knuckling under" about??
=EF=BF=BDThere'=
s the plan that
> answers the question that she claims her friend brought up.
>
> Banty- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I can't believe how long this thread actually got! lol. I just had a
thought the other day about this....I remember going on outings with
my grandmother when I was around 5 or 6, LOVED them, even something as
mundane as a trip to the grocery story, (it eventually came to me
taking her on outings, the memories of which I'll treasure the rest of
my life), and she was a young grandmother compared to many today with
the majority of people waiting longer and longer, but if you want to
wait until said child is 5 or 10 years old to ride in a car with
grandma, then grandma is also going to be 5 or 10 years older - this
could make no difference and all the difference.
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